[Transcript] Episode 435: Doubt Yourself, Do It Anyway – Discussing Authentic Leadership with guest Patrick Casale

 

Evan Dumas 

You’re listening to Group Practice Tech, a podcast by Person Centered Tech, where we help mental health group practice owners ethically and effectively leverage tech to improve their practices. I’m your co-host, Evan Dumas.

 

Liath Dalton 

And I’m Liath Dalton, and we are Person Centered Tech. 

 

Liath Dalton 

This episode is brought to you by Therapy Notes. Therapy Notes is a robust online practice management and electronic health record system to support you in growing your thriving practice. Therapy Notes is a complete practice management system with all the functionality you need to manage client records, meet with clients remotely, create rich documentation, schedule appointments and bill insurance all right at your fingertips. To get two free months of Therapy Notes as a new Therapy Notes user, go to therapynotes.com and use promo code PCT.

 

Evan Dumas 

Hello and welcome to Episode 435: Doubt Yourself, Do It Anyway – Discussing Authentic Leadership with guest Patrick Casale.

 

Liath Dalton

Welcome to this special episode of Group Practice Tech with guest expert, the wonderful Patrick Casale, of All Things Private Practice and Empowered Escapes and Divergent Conversations. Patrick is also a group owner, and we have lots that we enjoy discussing.

 

Liath Dalton 

Today, we’re going to be discussing “doubt yourself, do it anyway,” what that means, and how it is beyond private practice. So Patrick, welcome, thanks for joining me again.

 

Patrick Casale 

It’s great to be here, and thanks for having me on to talk about this.

 

Liath Dalton 

Well, I know it’s very encompassing for you and how you navigate all of the sort of different intersecting ventures that you have going on. So can you share, for those who aren’t aware what, what you mean by doubt yourself, do it anyway, and kind of the origins of that?

 

Patrick Casale 

Yeah, so I just got back from co-hosting my first international Doubt Yourself, Do It Anyway Summit in Petritoli, Italy, where we rented an entire medieval village and bussed 90 mental health therapists, entrepreneurs, group practice owners out into the middle of nowhere, and spent five days out there working through mindset shifts and inner child wounding and strategies to move beyond one on one therapy and how we can normalize self doubt, imposter syndrome, perfectionism, and the fear of failure. And I think that’s kind of been the foundation of everything that I’ve created over the last five years.

 

Liath Dalton  

Yeah, well, I know from what I have gotten to see and experience of you and your presence in the professional and collegial community, that a big part of how that is revealed for you is through your own sort of authentic vulnerability and sharing that even though you’re doing all these really awesome things, that you are continually grappling with this exact experience. So what is that kind of like to be living that and supporting others through it and creating an intentional community based around that?

 

Patrick Casale 

Yeah, that’s a great question. So all of my life, I’ve been someone who has been very vocal about my own struggles. It’s not only cathartic for me to just put it out into the world and write about it or talk about it, it’s also because I want people who are experiencing similar things, who maybe don’t have the ability or privilege or the verbiage to put this stuff out into the world safely. I know I have a lot of privilege, so I I’ve always felt pretty comfortable just being as authentic as can be, not to mention that I am also autistic, so being authentic, being real, being vulnerable, talking about the stuff that I’m experiencing that just feels really natural for me.

 

Patrick Casale 

And I’ve noticed that the more I do that, even when I’m creating some of the things that people see me creating, because I think it’s easy, if you’re looking at it through the lens of like social media and comparison culture and anything else, it’s like, oh, man, what a glamorous life, right? It’s like traveling the world, hosting summits, hosting retreats, doing podcasts, doing keynote speaking. I’m about to do a Ted Talk. Like in reality, all of this has come from how vulnerable and raw and authentic I am about the human experience and about the existence that I have and the struggles that I experience on a daily basis. And I think that’s just really landed for a lot of people who are in my sphere or who are attracted to the work that I do, and that’s always been my goal, is to help make humanity feel more authentic and relatable and ensuring that people know they’re just not alone in this.

 

Liath Dalton 

Exactly I’ve been that is so much of what I have experienced, getting to sort of witness it, to the extent that I have, is that you’re really creating and holding safe space through living it yourself. So just like we are always talking in clinical terms, about meeting clients where they are, it’s like you’re you’re meeting your colleagues and peers, where, where they are, too, by just revealing that yourself.

 

Patrick Casale 

Yeah, yep. That’s always been a goal of mine, and it’s something that is important to me when I’m in the circles of entrepreneurs, the level of even the ones that you would really label as successful entrepreneurs, including myself, there’s such an intense level of self doubt and perfectionism and feeling not good enough, or like you’re a fraud, or your idea is just not worth putting out into the world. And it breaks my heart, because, like, there are so many people with such good ideas who will never accomplish their goals because the fear of vulnerability is too intense for them to put their idea out into the world and pursue it.

 

Liath Dalton 

So, so, well said, What would you sort of share about the experience in Italy about how that took shape in that, that space, and what you think people left with, what they’re going to carry back into their hopefully, like daily lives and personal practices?

 

Patrick Casale 

Yeah, the idea came about because I had major throat surgery last year, or two years ago, and it left my vocal cord damaged and paralyzed, and I spent a lot of time recovering from medical trauma in my house, depressed, feeling like I need some creative spark, I need something that’s going to make me feel like a human and feel alive again. And I came across this article that said, like, rent an entire medieval village in Italy. And I was like, that’s surely a scam.

 

Patrick Casale 

And then I did some digging, contacted the person who manages all the properties and the and the experiences, and talked to them for almost two hours. And I was like, huh, this could maybe turn into a thing where we could rent an entire village, and people would be walking down like the cobblestone streets to get coffee or gelato or wine, and you would be passing each other in the village, and the theater is from the 1600s and it’s freaking beautiful. And so I went out to visit it last year, I spent 30 days in Europe doing recon for retreats and summits for this year, which is crazy, because now it’s over.

 

Liath Dalton 

Much to your relief, no doubt.

 

Patrick Casale 

Yeah, definitely a major relief, for sure. So we went out to this village, and I kept thinking, like, the only reason I would say no to this is if it’s like the movie Hostel, and maybe people start disappearing, or like, it’s so expensive that we just can’t fathom putting this event together. And neither of those things were the case, thankfully. And then it started to take shape.

 

Patrick Casale 

And really what I wanted to create was a environment where almost 100 people could come be vulnerable, because there’s vulnerability in travel, there’s risk. A lot of people came by themselves. A lot of people traveled out of the country for the first time to do this, and that always inspires me. And then getting 14 speakers there who are really powerful, really good speakers, like all of them, could be keynotes in some capacity, and cultivating this environment and this event to allow for people to truly drop in and and just be really authentic about their goals, their desires, their hopes, their dreams, and also to name the vulnerability, the self doubt, the imposter syndrome, and to work through it collectively, and to create that energy.

 

Patrick Casale 

And then in addition doing like tours and pizza making and pasta making and wineries and all the things that came with it, but like it was just so freaking powerful, and watching every single speaker create some sort of emotional response from the audience, and just how invested everybody was into the mentality of like, the doubt yourself, do it anyway motto. And I really hope that people leave and are able to apply what they’ve learned. There’s always a vulnerability hangover after events like that, people are like, Oh, my God, I have to go back to real life. But that would definitely be my hope. And the feedback was absolutely phenomenal across the board.

 

Liath Dalton  

I am not surprised at all knowing the, you know, intentionality and care, that you really curated that whole experience around. So I want to go back to sort of how you first coined this, this term, which I understand you trademarked as well, which is awesome and, and how that has sort of become part of your brand, in a way, like, right?

 

Patrick Casale 

I think it’s like living and practicing what you preach. And I myself, even when I step on stage to talk about this stuff, I was the last speaker in the event, and even when I’ve keynoted conferences, or even when I launch a course and 10 people are sitting in front of me on a Zoom screen who all know me or paid me, but I get that immediate reaction of like, oh my god, I don’t know what I’m doing. Or I shouldn’t be the one to be putting this message out into the world.

 

Patrick Casale 

And when that happens, I typically name it in real time, like I’m feeling really anxious, I’m feeling really nervous, like I’m experiencing, my heart is beating really fast, or whatever, then you’re allowed to, like, drop in. And I think by modeling the fact that anyone can start with nothing in terms of business development or growth or audience, and turn it into something by being consistent and authentic and aligned to your values, and if I did a timeline lapse from like starting my private practice in 2017 fast forwarding to now, there’s no chance in hell that I think I’m sitting here telling you this story.

 

Liath Dalton 

Right, right, exactly. Well, speaking of just the amazing trajectory that your own path and journey has has taken you on, one, one aspect of that is very, very much your own living out of the beyond private practice, right? That you have found ways to create the life and connections that that you want and need, that are fulfilling, that are still you know, it’s all interconnected, but it is not just doing client hours or running your your group practice. And, and so that that aspect of it’s rooted in your private practice, right to it to an extent, but also you have expanded beyond that. How do you support or encourage others to look at what that might how that might take shape for them?

 

Patrick Casale 

It’s a great question. I haven’t actually practiced as a therapist since October of 2022, when I had my second throat surgery, and it’s amazing that it’s gone almost two years now. But I think about all the things that we are equipped to do as clinicians and mental health professionals, and all of the skill sets that we have. And I know that grad school doesn’t prepare us for these things. I know that grad school doesn’t teach us how to run businesses or to be entrepreneurs, but I’ve always been entrepreneurial in my mind.

 

Patrick Casale 

And you know, I can remember lemonade sales and yard sales as a kid, and like wanting to mow grass, and I just always wanted to have freedom and autonomy. And I think so many entrepreneurs, mental health professionals included, are probably neurodivergent, there’s probably a lot of you listening who are autistic, ADHD, etc., I don’t think we belong in the confines of a traditional nine to five. I don’t think that works for our systems.

 

Patrick Casale 

So every time you take that step, every time you feel that fear, every time you move into that unknown space of self doubt and insecurity, you can kind of anchor into the fact that you’ve done something similar. It may not be to the same magnitude, but it does build those neural pathways in your brain that say, like, it is not going to be that scary, like, let’s embrace the fear. Let’s use it as a gas pedal, not a brake. Let’s use it as a compass.

 

Patrick Casale 

And once you start taking risks, right, when you leave your community mental health job or your agency job or your government job that’s secure and it’s a consistent paycheck, and you leave to start that private practice, that’s a risk. When you think about doing training programs or workshops and selling them to the community, that’s a risk. When you want to start a group practice, that’s a risk. When you want to hire someone, or hire multiple people, or 25 people like myself, I don’t know what was thinking. When you want to start a podcast, it’s a risk. When you want to start, when you want to start any of this stuff, but what I’ve learned is each risk allows you to build off of it.

 

Patrick Casale 

Anytime I start feeling really excited, I have to check in with myself and say, like, okay, who’s driving the ship, is it ADHD right now? Because then we maybe need to put some brakes on. But in reality, if I feel fearful or self doubt or insecurity and I am excited about the opportunity. I know I need to move into it, I need to step into it. And that has happened with hosting my first retreat back in 2022 in Ireland. That started with just putting it out to the world and saying, If I start, if I hosted a retreat in Ireland, who would come? And 60 people probably said yes. But 60 people commenting on a Facebook post is very different than 15 to 20 people signing up and paying you.

 

Liath Dalton 

Yes indeed. Well, speaking of retreats and creating these connections and sort of building that, that practice and these pathways and muscle memory of doing it, the scary pieces, and being vulnerable and authentic in a collective space, that’s something that’s going to be addressed at the leadership retreat, next September, 2025, in Greece, which I am massively excited about. What do you want to share with folks about that? Because I am imagining that so many people are listening along, thinking, oh yes, this sounds appealing and nourishing and like something that would be useful for for my personal and professional development and plans.

 

Patrick Casale 

Yeah, thank you for that wonderful segue. I am excited to have you there, and hopefully Dylan will be there too. So we did a leadership retreat in Chania on the island of Crete this year. And I will say it’s one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever been in my life. Like one of those places where it’s like, got the bright purple and pink bergonias, like against the wall, the rock walls and like little alleyways and the Greek food and the Greek countryside, and like the water and the light. It’s amazing, like it’s one of those places that I will forever remember. And it was such a hit this year that we were immediately, my my business partner, Jennifer, and I were just like, we’ve got to do this again, because people had such a good time.

 

Patrick Casale 

So ultimately, September 6 to the 11th in 2025 we will be on the island of Crete in the town of Chania. We’ll be working in leadership capacity for group practice owners and leaders in the field. You don’t have to be a group practice owner. It’ll have You, Azizi Marshall, it’ll have Maureen Werrbach, who everyone, I assume, knows at this stage of group practice. It’ll have Gabrielle Juliano-Villani, and then it will have myself and Jennifer Agee, and we’re going to spend five days working in your group practice structures, your leadership styles. We’re going to have delicious meals together, watching the sunset over the lighthouse on the bay. We’re going to go into the Cretan countryside and do like a Cretan countryside, small village tour. We are going to do a sunset boat cruise, and you’re going to get CEUs, and it’s going to be a tax write off. So for me, it feels like a freaking win every time.

 

Liath Dalton 

Exactly.

 

Patrick Casale 

And if that doesn’t sound appealing, we’ve got the Doubt Yourself, Do It Anyway Summit in Edinburgh, Scotland in July, and Creating Alternative Streams of Revenue in a beautiful villa in Catalonia in September.

 

 

So exciting, and speaking to how just idyllic and picturesque Chania is, I will confess to you and to everyone listening that when I first pulled up pictures of it after getting your invite, I might have admitted a few squeals. It’s just spectacular. But aside from how visually appealing it is, I love that it’s this, you know, kind of combining the learning that is so fantastic in conferences, but is missing that key ingredient of the relationship building that having this kind of retreat oriented summit where I think it’s kind of more holistically nourishing for people and for creating relationships and connections.

 

Liath Dalton 

And especially, you know, in the group practice leadership space, I know that that can be kind of isolating, and that one of the things that group practice leaders really crave is having that connection with, with colleagues who are navigating the same things as as they are.

 

Patrick Casale 

Absolutely.

 

Liath Dalton 

I’m looking forward to it, and for everyone listening along, but there will be a link to the retreat and more information and registration option in the show notes. So do check that out if, as we’re discussing this, this is appealing to you. I know Patrick and myself and the other great group of speakers, would love to have you join us.

 

Patrick Casale 

Absolutely. We would love to see you in 2025 and I think that is the epitome of Doubt Yourself, Do It Anyway, taking that risk to grow, not only professionally, but more importantly, personally.

 

Liath Dalton 

And that seems like the perfect place to kind of wrap this episode up, unless there is anything else about doubting yourself and doing it anyway, that like a party nugget that you would like to leave folks with.

 

Patrick Casale 

I don’t want to self promote anymore, and that’s all I can think of. Check out the All Things Private Practice podcast, and you can follow me on Instagram at Patrick.Casele.

 

Liath Dalton  

Sounds good. Well, thanks for joining me, Patrick and I’ll see you in Greece, if not before.

 

Patrick Casale 

Sounds great. Thanks, Liath.

 

Liath Dalton 

This has been Group Practice Tech you can find us at personcenteredtech.com. For more podcast episodes, you can go to personcenteredtech.com/podcast or click podcast on the menu bar.